Back on May 13th I wrote a post that quoted Bob Bly and his views on marketing with blogs.
6 weeks after the post was written, Bob commented on it and said,
” Not sure how you guys reach the conclusion that I know nothing about blogging. Launched my marketing blog in 11/04, and as you can see from the archived comments, it is extremely popular. I am not a big subscriber to RSS, though I get Adrants and a few others that way. “
To which I commented back and let Bob know that we had not reached any conclusions, but that he concluded for us when he made remarks such as,
” In my observation, there are two major problems with blogging as a business-building tool.
The first is that most of the blogs I encounter are rambling, streams-of-consciousness musings about a particular topic of interest to the author, largely bereft of the kind of practical, pithy tips that e-zines, Web sites, and white papers offer. “
Now Bob has commented again and NOW he says he’s an uber-blogger and has a big-time publisher who wants him to write a book about blogs and their use for marketing.
Somebody with less on the ball than Bob is gonna pay him to write a book about the very thing he dismissed as :
… an utter waste of time
… a pure vanity publication that won’t pay you back even one thin dime for your effort
… something with no ROI
… something less effective than a newsletter or ezine
… rambling, streams-of-consciousness musings
… gloppy mess, tasteless, and not very satisfyingOn the contrary: I stand by everything I said, and in fact, have a book on the subject coming out next year from a major publisher. It cuts through the hyper about blogs, promoted by blogging consultants and evangelists, and focuses on the real but limited value of blogs in the marketing mix.
… largely bereft of the kind of practical, pithy tips that e-zines, Web sites, and white papers offer
… rambling, incoherent, and more suited for private thoughts than public consumption
He also proved that he knew nothing of RSS and the delivery mechanism that blogs use when he said,
” The second problem with blogs is one of distribution.
With an e-zine, once the reader subscribes, he gets the e-zine delivered to him electronically every week or every month — or however often you send it.
But with a blog, the reader has to go out and proactively look for it. And since your contributions to your blog may be irregular and unscheduled, he has no way of knowing when something new of interest has been added. “
And Bob was kind enough to really trash blogs by saying,
” If you have something of value to share, there are many better formats for doing it online than by blogging, including white papers, e-zines, and Web sites. “
Bob also stated that he stood behind these comments ( kinda proud of them, I think ), when today he added,
” On the contrary: I stand by everything I said, and in fact, have a book on the subject coming out next year from a major publisher. It cuts through the hyper about blogs, promoted by blogging consultants and evangelists, and focuses on the real but limited value of blogs in the marketing mix. “
So now, Bob must mean that he’s seen that there’s money to be made writing about blogs and their uses, which he clearly states as none. He also says they have limited uses in marketing.
Really ? So does TV, so does radio, so does direct mail, so do newspapers, etc.
That’s why a smart company uses ALL of the available forms of media to get their message out to their market Bob.
And that’s why anybody with 1/4 of a brain wouldn’t pay YOU to write about blogs and their uses in the marketing mix.
A really smart company would pay ME to take care of their marketing and a publisher that was really in tune with the market would pay ME to write about blogs and their uses in the marketing mix. Since I own a blog network and am paid to be the voice of two companies as their pro blogger, I’d think that I know a helluva lot more than you do about blogging Bob.
But you don’t need me to prove that do you ? You’ve already done a great job of proving that yourself.
Now do yourself a favor Bob, read the blogs of the 5.8% of the Fortune 500′s bloggers and read the blogs out there that are trying to teach people how to best use blogs as a marketing vehicle and learn, but don’t speak, as you only lose more favor and embarass yourself more every time you open your mouth.
This would be a good time for the blogosphere to jump in, write more posts, maybe a few Trackbacks and links and let’s set the record straight – that we aren’t just ” hypey, … promoted by blogging consultants and evangelists, and of limited value. ”
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{ 22 comments… read them below or add one }
Man, I told you to watch out for that old dog. If and old-school direct marketer smells money, it doesn’t matter what has been said before.
And how come I can’t land a slot on your blog roll?
You don’t want me to pout, do you?
Hey Brian – I’ve stolen so much from you I just assumed I’d put you on there by osmosis !
That wrong has been made right, along with my apologies…. not for stealing all your ideas, for not admitting it sooner !
Geez, this Bob Bly is a classic – ripping into blogs and now he’s an uber-blogger who’s gonna write a book saying blogging has limited marketing value. Sounds like someone jumping on the bandwagon.
If anyone should get a publishing deal it should be Brian Clark – sorry Mike
– Brian has that knack of writing clean, concise and beautiful copy.
Oh, and Bob Bly should be the first to read it. He might learn a thing or three.
Hey Martin – I agree with you. Brian’s a great writer, a recovering lawyer
and reads my blog, what else could we want in the writer of a book about business blogging. I’m betting, though, that he’s already as busy as he wants to be doing work for the corporate world. He sounds too good to be doing less than he wants for whatever price he wants.
BUT, as for business blogging, I’m gonna have to get to write the foreword, or I’ll cry.
I can guarantee you right here, right now, that I could take any business out there and increase their sales, better their relationships with their customers, find a dozen new avenues for their product, find out which segment of their market is not being served adequately, etc. and increase their hold on their segment of their market as well as any human alive today.
I’m already maxed out on my billable time doing this for a couple of companies, as their pro blogger, but I can squeeze in one more if we can find someone in need.
I get it. Uber now means pseudo. That’s all. Then all of the rest makes sense.
Finally Liz, someone made sense of all those ” rambling, streams-of-consciousness musings ” and thoughts that were ” incoherent, and more suited for private thoughts than public consumption. ”
Thanks for the clarifications !
Well, either way it’s an interesting read when Bob Bly is mentioned.
HART – The only links in my sidebar are paid text links, not affiliate links and none of them are hidden, nor are they in any whitespace, since I don’t have any.
With all due respect, I’ll put my copy and writing against yours or Brian Clark’s any day of the week in an A/B split test by a marketer who measures results. I have been writing copy for more than a quarter of a century, have the longest list of client testimonials of any copywriter online, and have written 70 books published by major NYC publishers. You can see it all at http://www.bly.com. Also, with an income of around three quarters of a million dollars a year, I am in the top 1% of freelance copywriters when it comes to earnings.
Good ‘ol Bob – You just don’t get it do you ? Or do you have trouble reading English ?
You keep showing up a month after your last comment and telling us how good of a marketer you are.
Pay attention here Bob and I’ll go real s-l-o-w, so even you can understand.
We don’t doubt your skills as a copywriter.
We don’t doubt your knowledge about marketing.
Do you catch that ? You can quit telling us about that.
What we don’t doubt is that you don’t know diddly-freakin’ squat about blogs. You have proved that … over and over again.
Yopu’ve also led us to believe that you don’t comprehend written word very well either.
These comments are directed at your blogging knowledge, which is second to everyone. Nobody knows less about blogs that you do. Nobody.
You’re also as dense as a concrete block.
Please just have a small child read this to you and put it into terms even you can comprehend and respond with respect to the accusations, not with general info.
Thanks for stopping by and proving all my points.
You are a rude a-hole, Mike. There is no need to take the tone with me that you do. Trust me, I know more about not only book publishing, marketing, and copywriting than you do — but I also possess a much more realistic view of blogs as a marketing tool. The publisher who hired me to write my blogging book, by the way, is headed by Michael Hyatt, one of the top bloggers around.
Bob, that’s the first thing you’ve said that I agree with.
I AM rude and have even been an asshole once or twice … just this week ! We finally agree !
Again, Bob, you bring up marketing and copywriting and we aren’t discussing those topics. We all agree you are very well respected in those venues, BUT you know squat about marketing. Zip, zich, nada, nothing.
And you proved that by standing behind those archaic statements you made.
I guarantee that I know more about using blogs as a marketing vehicle than you. Guarantee.
Today, Bob, I agreed to do the corporate blogs of three divisions for a corporation with revenues of over $100 million.
I’m also already doing corporate blogs for 2 other multi-million dollar companies and am in negotiations with 2 others.
I’ve had to employ 3 more staff members just to meet the demands.
I’ll have made money for me and those clients while you write the book. That, kind sir, makes me a lot more valuable to the industry.
There will be 75,000 books written this year, Bob, but only a select few of us will actually become invaluable to our industry.
Remember this, Bob – Those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach.
I’m a doer and will dominate the markets for the companies I choose to work with. You’ll write a book that nobody will really read and it won’t make a real dollar for a real company.
Oh and by the way, thanks for telling me it was Michael Hyatt. he’s in my email list and I’ll be forwarding him your archaic views and hope he drops you like a bad habit.
You’re right about one other thing – Michael Hyatt is a blogger of high regard and the way he conducted himself after Katrina is why he’s on my ” must read ” list.
Mike, you are a joke. Just because you can sucker a company into actually paying you to blog doesn’t mean what you do for them has any value. Your claim about a company dominating a market because you write a blog for them is beyond absurd — and typical of the bill of goods blogging consultants and evangelists are selling unwary clients today … a practice I hope my book will put an end to. My copy has made many millions of dollars for my clients that they can directly link to what I wrote for them — so to say I am just a book author is absurd. That’s my avocation. Making the cash register ring with copy is my vocation, and I am paid handsomely for it.
Thanks Bob ! That’s the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day.
Driving down to Nashville and shaking those hands must have been a dream or something.
I’m sure they just fell for a story or something Bob. Maybe it was my good looks !
Most $100 million dollar corporations don’t research or test, they just fall for a bill of goods from a charlatan like me. A snake-oil salesman with no credentials.
Surely we didn’t do any testing.
Surely we didn’t promise and deliver results.
Surely I can’t do them any good. I mean, I’m no big time author or anything.
Maybe, just maybe, it was simple tactics that actually work and not some theories that an author thought of.
Here’s the thing Bob. I am actually, right now, this minute, doing multiple blogs for multiple companies and you are writing a book .. or say you are.
That makes me more of an business blogging expert than you.
Period.
But you win the authoring contest … hands down.
I don’t wite about it, Bob, I do it for a living.
You are a heckuva writer, copywriter and marketer, BUT you’re no blogger and don’t do one single blog for one single corporation. None. Zero.
That makes you a theorist, not an experienced business blog marketer.
When you have done thousands of posts and taken several blogs to the top of the search engines… when you have added thousands of subscribers to individual blogs… when you have had the CEO’s of multiple companies ask you to go to dinner with them and have them tell you they never would have believed it till they saw it….
THEN and only THEN will you have any credibility in the business blogging world. Until then, you’re an author who smells the corporate money and now decides that business blogs are the real thing instead of all the ways you trashed them before.
You have no idea what the heck an RSS reader is or does. You know nothing of any part of blogging. You’ve never set-up a blog. You know nothing about a search engine optimized theme. You only know how to write about it.
You, sir, are an old marketing war-horse who wants to jump on the band wagon and grab some dollars as you recycle your old copy to fit the blogging arena.
It won’t work, by the way. The blogosphere will smell you out and tell the world that you’re not one of their own.
You’ll sell diddly-squat, sir, and won’t be an impact player. EVER.
In that same time, I’ll have added dollars, real ones, to the bottom line of my clients.
I’ve already done so and am doing more of it. EVERY DAY.
If I didn’t enjoy selling and meeting clients face-to-face, I’d blog for a living, instead of using those dollars to fund another year off lying on the beach. Been there, done that.
You claim your copy is the direct link to their success. I use copy, too, Bob, it’s part of a blog. But there’s more to blogging than the copy.
You cannot position a blog as you did with some copy you mailed out years ago. You will never be able to change your spots and won’t adapt. THAT’S what blogs do daily. They adapt. And smart companies adapt with them.
The world has read your views on blogs and sees that you don’t know anything about their uses, their role in the world today and their value.
I don’t sell a bill of goods, Bob, I deliver results. I keep my promises. I come thru.
I hope you book does the same.
No, that’s a lie. I hope you never pollute the bookstores with your mindless drivel and your idiot views which we all read.
Stop boring us with your tales of marketing expertise and your copywriting skills. Show us some of your business blogging exploits, Bob.
Where’s your evidence ? Where’s your proof ?
You’ve done the easy part, you’ve talked a good game. Now show us your daily business blogging abilities.
Or are you just a theorist ? Full of ideas, thoughts and verbosity that’s not proven in the business blogging field ?
You’re right: I don’t blog for any clients. Because selling blogging to clients is a rip-off. I sell money-making marketing copy, not crap like corporate blogs. As for my results, go to http://www.bly.com and click on testimonials. What’s the URL where you post testimonials from your blogging clients saying you’ve made them money?
Bob, don’t you have a book to write ?
Would you go write it and leave me alone ?
I have actual work to do for the actual business blogs I’m the driving force behind.
I have blogs to facilitate, design, build and propagate and don’t have time to help you dig yourself in any deeper.
Let’s see:
” Because selling blogging to clients is a rip-off. I sell money-making marketing copy, not crap like corporate blogs. “
That should win you some friends in the blogosphere. I’ll bet the publishers will line up wanting you to write a blogging book for them after that idiot-bomb !
Hopefully Michael Hyatt will stop by, read all your previous comments about blogs being worthless, see that you call corporate blogs ” crap ” and tell you to look elsewhere for your book deal.
He should especailly like the ” crap ” part, since he writes, oh, …two of them ?
Nice, Bob, real nice. You’re a real beauty. How’s the weather back in the Stone Age, you dinosaur ?
I love having a battle of wits with an unarmed man !
By the way, Bob, my clients and I sign non-disclosure agreements. Those of us who work in the business blogging arena have those, just like we have non-competes and other protection devices we need in the world of ” crap ” corporate blogs.
Once again, you’ve resorted to the ol’ ” I write copy, I’m a marketer ” mantra. We are talking blogs, Bob, blogs. Stick with the topic, if you can grasp it.
Think about this, Bob :
Without a place to insert it, you’re copy has no chance at success.
With the proper positioning, even bad copy could make a blog successful.
Can you design a blog ? Can you position it in the market ? Do you know where to get the data you need to analyze to make that blog get the results you promise ?
No, you can’t. But you could write the copy. Whoop-de-do.
Face it, Bob – You’re a wordsmith. Nothing more, nothing less. You’re not a blogger, you know nothing of the ins and outs of the blogosphere and you’ll never be accepted by them.
The business world won’t be buying any book you write about blogging either. You’ve made sure of that with your ” crap ” comment.
No publisher will ever touch you now. You’re toast as far as the world of business blogs go.
The architecture behind this blog has captured your IP, you’ve spelled out your true feelings and we have a permanent record of your deep thoughts about corporate blogs.
You should have stuck to what you know – writing copy that someone else will claim as their own. You’ll always be a nameless, faceless wordsmith.
Whereas I’ll be the voice, the face and the driving force behind several business blogs.
They can find another copywriter and replace your copy. The face, the tone, the direction and name I establish depends on me.
I have job security and a long-term contract. You’re there until someone beats your control piece.
Ta-ta !
Yes, I have no job security. That’s why I’ve been earning six figures a year as a freelance copywriter for a quarter of a century. Yes, I am a nameless wordsmith, who has his name on 70 books from major publishing houses — content that the marketplace found good enough to pay for — vs. you whose only forum is his blog, for whom no one pays you. I have *total* job security because my copy works and makes them money … and in a world of blogging evangelists and branding gurus, that’s a rare thing indeed. As for sealing my doom, I sold my blogging book on the PREMISE that it would expose blogging as overhyped … which it will.
Bob ‘Ol Buudy – I’ve sold millions of dollars in products every year for over two decades. I’m paid plenty already, but you’re wrong again – I’m paid to write this blog, I have advertisers who desire to be here.
I don’t write books that tell people about selling and marketing, I do it every day.
This blog is only 1 of 15 that we do and I’ll make close to six-figures from them, along with my normal earnings, which will rival yours any day.
I hope you find someone to buy your book, if they still want you to write it, because it sure won’t be bought by bloggers and I can’t even begin to imagine anybody else will want to read about them being exposed.
Bloggers might, read : MIGHT, read a book about the medium, but those that don’t blog won’t buy a book about blogging.
Looks like a lack of market knowledge to me. A classic case of writing about the negative side of a medium, due to the lack of expertise on the positive side of the medium.
Kinda like some fool copywriter and his fad-diet sales copy. He doesn’t believe in the diet, so he trashes it. Then the copy is read by those who understood the premise and lost 100 lbs., all because they were simple enough to actually understand what they read, instead of being too smart to learn … kinda like you Bob.
You don’t understand the mechanics of blogging, the atmosphere, the etiquette or anything else about it, so you trash it.
Those that don’t know or can’t grasp a skill or subject tend to speak of it in negative terms. Looks like what you’re doing.
We’ve all seen your thoughts about business blogs and your complete lack of knowledge about how they work, so it’s only natural that you’d trash ‘em.
Just for the record, Bob, I’m not a blogging evangelist, I’m a salesman and a marketer who’s learned how to use blogs to their fullest extent. I also use direst-mail, radio and other forms of communications for my clients. I write white-papers for them, we do teleseminars, News Releases, etc. We use copy, Bob, in several ways besides just in a long form sales letter.
Maybe if you’d actually use blogs for business purposes, you too could write about them in a positive light instead of trashing them because you don’t understand the medium.
Hopefully you’ll rethink this before you’re like the old lady in the commercial – ” Help ! I’ve fallen and I can’t get up ! ”
Maybe you wrote that enthralling copy. You’re certainly living it.
Now, Bob, leave me to my sales and marketing today and don’t bother me with any more of your mindless and pointless protestations. I have work to do, you go write about sales and marketing while I’m doing it.
I’ve got a new campaign to design, Bob, and we’ll use copy, but there’s also about 10 other elements to the campaign.
Too bad you only grasp one of the elements. But that’s okay, somebody has to be subcontracted out for that element, while those that design the entire campaign reap the rewards that the single element guys miss out on.
( insert evil laughter here )
You have strange views of things indeed: (1) You keep saying “Bob only writes books, while Mike is in the trenches” … but as I’ve explained several times, I earn my living writing copy, not books,(2) you seem to think books and authors have no value, a strange view for an educated person to hold, and (3) you imply that you as a brilliant marketing strategist add more value than me as a humble marketer, yet I have a client list and endless testimonials and results to the contrary. The thing is, I looked you up online and was quite impressed with your sales background in the “real world” (concrete is about as real as it gets). I too have a background in industrial marketing — everything from pumps to compressors. I think our main differences are (a) you are rude online and I am not (b) you, like a few other blogging experts, cannot tolerate anyone who does his due diligence and dares question the effectiveness of blogging as a marketing tool.
You have strange views of things indeed: (1) You keep saying “Bob only writes books, while Mike is in the trenches” … but as I’ve explained several times, I earn my living writing copy, not books,(2) you seem to think books and authors have no value, a strange view for an educated person to hold, and (3) you imply that you as a brilliant marketing strategist add more value than me as a humble marketer, yet I have a client list and endless testimonials and results to the contrary. The thing is, I looked you up online and was quite impressed with your sales background in the “real world” (concrete is about as real as it gets). I too have a background in industrial marketing — everything from pumps to compressors. I think our main differences are (a) you are rude online and I am not (b) you, like a few other blogging experts, cannot tolerate anyone who does his due diligence and dares question the effectiveness of blogging as a marketing tool. BTW, I won’t respond further, so if you want the last word, it is yours, no rather how rude or abusive you are.
Bob – I have no desire to be rude or offensive and if your points had any validity, I would not differ with you.
You’re a copywriter and author that’s well respected for that skill. I have no qualms with your expertise as a marketer or copywriter.
My qualms are with you saying blogs have no use in the business world.
You’re wrong to the point of looking foolish.
I can recognize it, as I’ve been there and done that.
Blogs are but one of the mediums that I use. One.
They are very effective in that they do what you do with them. I use them several ways, not just as a journal, as you seem to think is all they can do.
Bob, the messages that each client is trying to parlay into customers, branding, support or whatever, can be deployed better than ever before with blogs and blogging content management systems.
You really need to study all that’s going on in this ‘sphere, because with your talent as a wordsmith, you could be more effective tha ever before.
If you knew anything about blogging etiquette, you’d know that you don’t come on a man’s blog and trash his ideas … you do it on your blog. But you haven’t immersed yourself into blogging and don’t know anything about the terms, the etiquette, the software or their uses.
You really shouldn’t try to write a book that has blogging in it at all until you are one of them/us.
What will happen is that you’ll write it and nobody will read it. You’ve trashed it too badly to ever get back in … mainly because I’ll be watching and waiting and ever vigilant to remind the coprorate blogosphere that you said they were ” crap “.
Find another topic and you’ll do better. Tired old rhetoric that you recycle and try to make use of, by applying the recycled copy from previous books into blogging will not be a pretty thing to read, nor will it be effective.
I’ve read all your stuff, Bob. You need a fresh perspective.
You made the mistake of writing all you know down, whereas I have not and can adapt my methods to this new medium without fear of reprisal.
I have 10-15 different ways to use a blog in the business world that you don’t know about.
All business blogs don’t look or sound the same, so you can’t really pin down the methods in a book, because each client has a different need. and the blogosphere changes too fast for a book to be effective.
Kinda like the out-of-date textbooks our students use, versus the real world of that topic.
Some clients need branding, some need sales, some need support, some need education, some need tips, some need to form a user community to allow the users to make the product better, etc.
There’s not just one style, certainly not like the model you envision.
The content management systems behind blogs will be, WILL BE, the way websites are made in the future. Interactivity is here to stay.
Those that are 30 years old and under will demand this style of their vendors and suppliers. Adapt now or go the way of the dinosaur.
I apologize if you’ve been offended during our back-and-forth banter, but you don’t come on a man’s blog and refute everything he say, especially if you have no foundation under your theory and expect him to just allow you free reign.
And I don’t just sell concrete. I sell bricks, blocks, mortar, pavers, retaining walls, erosion control and related products.
I’ve been a nationally certified masonry consultant for a couple of decades.
I like masonry and am in the ownership of the company I represent, which is why I’ll never leave it behind.
But make no mistake, I design campaigns and market many other products that I don’t make public.
Oh, and I’m rude. Let’s not forget that.
That’s why I’ve had some clients for 2 decades.
Peace, Bob.
Enjoy your days. You’ve earned it thru your previous exploits and successes.